The Meno is an incredible dialogue. Presumably about virtue, it also showcases how souls respond to instruction; thus, it is often one of the first dialogues many students of Plato read. It is, however, much more complicated than other “first dialogues to read,” such as First Alcibiades or the Apology, and this complication mainly comes from the dialogue pivoting off an extended, complex math problem. Socrates uses geometry to show how the soul comes to know (or remember) something—which introduces Socrates’ famous theory of “recollection,” though to what degree the theory is proposed as a reflection of reality is debatable.
We are blessed on Ascend to be joined by Dr. Daniel Wagner who slowly walks us through the dialogue, including the math problem, and makes a complex dialogue seem much more clear and attainable.
The video conversation below is also available as a podcast.
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Video Discussion on the Meno
Most people remember the Meno for the slave boy and the famous squares in the sand. That scene is worth your time, but it is arguably not the heart of the dialogue. In this episode, Dr. Daniel Wagner of Aquinas College and the Lyceum Institute joins us to read the Meno as a drama about education.
Meno wants a definition of virtue he can use. Socrates will not give him one. What follows is a study in two kinds of student: the man who memorizes impressive answers and stays exactly where he started, and the slave who is willing to be stung by the “numb fish” and actually learn. In fact, the famous “numb fish” claim against Socrates is one of the most memorable descriptions of aporia or the bewilderment the soul endures when seeking the truth. It is a beautiful deconstruction of false ideas that is necessary to make room for new ones.
If you have ever wondered why Eva Brann called this dialogue the secular Bible of St. John’s College, listen to this conversation on the Meno.
We talk about why the geometry is aimed at Meno, not at us in general, and why the theory of recollection may be less a doctrine than a way of getting a proud man to keep talking. We also take up the harder question the dialogue leaves on the table. Virtue can be offered as knowledge, but it cannot be forced. The student has to respond. That is why Pericles can be a great statesman and still fail his sons, and why Socrates can teach Alcibiades and still watch him walk away (and dare we mention Jesus’ discipleship of Judas).
Dr. Wagner’s line at the end is the right one to carry into your own life: don’t be a Meno.
Good work! The Meno is a dialogue worth the effort—and a lot of people shy away because of the famous geometric example. Read the Meno and read it again. It is very instructive on how to be instructed—what does a soul open to education look like? The next dialogue on the docket is Plato’s Gorgias—a long dialogue that suspiciously mirrors Book One of the Republic and is presumably about rhetoric. The dialogue, however, matures (or devolves?) into a conversation on the good life and ends with a beautiful myth about the soul’s final judgment.
Be sure to check out our entire, growing library on Plato.
Dcn. Harrison Garlick lives in rural Oklahoma with his wife and five children. He serves as a deacon at Holy Family Cathedral and as Chancellor & General Counsel for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tulsa. Follow him on X at Dcn. Garlick or Ascend.